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Permalink Reply by Philip Carl SALZMAN on August 27, 2009 at 1:31am
Permalink Reply by John McCreery on August 27, 2009 at 2:58am So, you suggest that some parts of generalizations are useful and positive , but some parts are not ( these that don't regard internal variation , shift and whatever change). The point is HOW TO DISTINGUISH THESE PARTS A PRIORI ?
Permalink Reply by Philip Carl SALZMAN on August 27, 2009 at 3:04am Philip
So, you suggest that some parts of generalizations are useful and positive , but some parts are not ( these that don't regard internal variation , shift and whatever change). The point is HOW TO DISTINGUISH THESE PARTS A PRIORI ?
Permalink Reply by Philip Carl SALZMAN on August 27, 2009 at 3:17am
Permalink Reply by deniz batum on August 27, 2009 at 1:42pm Deniz, Does the statement "Moroccan people are generally proud" make Moroccans "look 'bad'"? I am not sure that Moroccans would feel that way. I don't.
Furthermore, I am not sure that anthropology should decide what it says on the basis of how good it makes the people we are talking about look. You would have to rule out statements like "Most Nazis were cruel to targeted minorities," and "Many Soviet citizens were starved, executed, or tortured."
As John suggests, essentialism is "the assertion of uniform, constant and immutable traits that define the culture/group in question," whether those traits might be deemed by some as positive, negative, or neutral. On the other hand, generalizations--descriptive generalizations--can and should take into account internal variation, and should not rule out change.
Permalink Reply by Philip Carl SALZMAN on August 27, 2009 at 10:20pm
Permalink Reply by deniz batum on August 27, 2009 at 11:41pm Deniz, so it is not the statement, but the general political view that should define "essentialism"? Anthropology is now to be defined by political views, some correct and others incorrect?
You have not dealt with the other examples I give in that post, or the examples from my own work that I give in the following post.
Permalink Reply by deniz batum on August 28, 2009 at 12:07am Hello again, my apologies about the long delay in responding, been busy on other things then lost my password which i just found. Anyway, this reply is directed towards Salzman and McCreery I guess and in response to this my reference to "absolutist science". So if you don't want to pick the thread up again that is fine but i thought it good manners to respond. By absolutist science I mean precisely what you are talking about - this sense that ethnographers feel what they do is always must approach being essentialist without going all the way. By absolutist I mean that is how they frame their world view if you like - that there is a mythical unity binding us all and we social anthropologists go about delineating with ever so careful nuance the subtle variations and emergent distinctions. I'm fine with that as I argue that all knowledge is highly contingent and rightly so - there are some facts about the world to be sure, but most stuff to do with human beings is messy and contingent. But this means any necessary unity is a heuristic only. To ask the question posed as it was here is to reify this unity as a real object or even an ideal. I wanted to point out that social and cultural anthropology is a social construction which simply means that social anthropology cannot be thought of as dealing with facts - as in there is a tree there or not there; that social anthropology is intended action and that we apply social anthropology to the world and we are not that clear on why we take something as evidence. I guess this is why the anthropologies have shifted more firmly into the humanities in recent years.
What do you think?
thanks
Permalink Reply by deniz batum on August 28, 2009 at 12:20am BDwyer writes,
I wanted to point out that social and cultural anthropology is a social construction which simply means that social anthropology cannot be thought of as dealing with facts - as in there is a tree there or not there
I reply,
This is nonsense. Consider, for example, the data I used for my dissertation on the symbolism of popular Daoist magic. The stuff about which I was writing, the spirit money, the incense, the food offerings, the mudras (mystical gestures) and the words employed in incantations are as thoroughly material facts as trees. The same is true of the credits attached to winning ads in the Tokyo Copywriters Club Annual that I am analyzing using the techniques of social network analysis, which, by the way, are mathematically well-defined and produce both predictable and replicable results.
The truth in the assertion that science and scholarship are social constructions is that agreement on what counts as a plausible conjecture or solid result depends on building a consensus within research communities that share basic concepts and methods, which, by the way, need not be the same from one community to another.
As Aristotle points out in Nichomachean Ethics III, it is the mark of an educated person that they demand no greater precision in argumentation that the subject matter allows. Literary scholars looking for fresh insights into particular works or genres confront different kinds of data and employ different interpretive approaches from biochemists performing experiments to analyze the structure of proteins. Mathematical logicians demand more rigor than archeologists developing plausible conjectures from the spatial distribution of potsherds.
There is nothing, however, in this scholarly common sense that implies that social construction equals sloppy all the way down.
Permalink Reply by Philip Carl SALZMAN on August 28, 2009 at 12:33am Dear Professor
Everything everywhere is always defined by political views. Don't you think so?
Philip Carl SALZMAN said:Deniz, so it is not the statement, but the general political view that should define "essentialism"? Anthropology is now to be defined by political views, some correct and others incorrect?
You have not dealt with the other examples I give in that post, or the examples from my own work that I give in the following post.
Permalink Reply by John McCreery on August 28, 2009 at 5:27am Just because you are writing about "material facts" does not mean your production is not socially constructed. And furthermore may I ask who has conceptualized this "magic"? Anyway, you are writing about the implications, meanings of material facts. You are writing this to share with an audience for whom it will make sense when they read it. You use a certain "language" so to speak to convey this information. If all of this is not socially constructed I do not know what is.
Permalink Reply by deniz batum on August 28, 2009 at 11:35pm Certainly not. If this were true, then we can forget about research altogether, as we all have our answers a priori. The view that everything is political and can be nothing else, and the celebration of it, is the most corrupting influence in anthropology. This view destroys any idea of knowledge, and makes anthropology no more than an opportunity for the expression of personal and political impulses, and thus worthless.
deniz batum said:Dear Professor
Everything everywhere is always defined by political views. Don't you think so?
Philip Carl SALZMAN said:Deniz, so it is not the statement, but the general political view that should define "essentialism"? Anthropology is now to be defined by political views, some correct and others incorrect?
You have not dealt with the other examples I give in that post, or the examples from my own work that I give in the following post.
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